Recording and presentations: How to finance, build, operate and maintain competitive CSP projects

26 February 2020

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Automated transcription (it may contain errors)

Belén Gallego 0:31
Okay, we’re gonna start

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good afternoon, depending where you’re joining from, I just wanted to let you know that you’re in the right place. We’re going to begin this webinar here in about two minutes. But we’re just waiting for, you know, a few more people to join this level for a little bit more time. So, to learn about CSP, you stay here where you are. And in the meanwhile, you know what we’re waiting. I invite you to use the chat on the side to actually just just say hi to everyone to introduce yourself, as I’m going to do right now. Thank you very much. And literally, we started in two minutes. Thank you.

Well, good morning. Good afternoon I see that we have people from Lebanon from Australia. We have people from Washington. Obviously, you guys don’t like to sleep very much, but we welcome you here because we want to talk today about how to finance, build, operate and maintain competitive CSP projects. We’re going to talk a great deal also got innovation of a new stuff that’s been done. And I’ve just come back from a conference About CSP. Last week in Sacramento, we were talking about, you know, the needs of the grade in terms of, of CSP and firmness. And I think this this is definitely a time where this conversations cycling back is going back into why this is needed, and the kinds of firms that we provide into into the grid. So this is the perfect time to have this. This webinar. I like to ask our speakers to introduce themselves first aglets Could you please introduce yourself and also tell us what you joined from today?

Unknown Speaker 4:32
Okay. Well, Hello, good morning. Good afternoon, everybody. This operational like always. Well, my name is Sammy Gail, I work for a CS MP, a company it’s a Chinese company that now is in Korea, the customers and commissioning phase last commissioning phase of ICS people were bland located in China First, the first phase being the biggest CSP plant in Well, I have a work a seminar leaders you know that you know, the PPC players from Europe that have previous experience and previous contact with China This is my reason my relationship with Chinese companies and well it is yes, I like to focus with it and explain in the presentation obviously, how was the power plant and also speak about the finance or the topics vital to generate questions.

Belén Gallego 5:30
Excellent. Thank you very much lights and Stephen, please introduce yourself.

Unknown Speaker 5:34
Yeah, hello also for my side stuff and motivation. My name I’m from Siemens energy, located here in garlits in Germany, and I’m responsible product manager for our industry steam turbines, and among many, many other applications. We are also supplying our Simple Minds into concentrated solar power plants and Thank you for the opportunity today to give you an insight on that. How r c provides help the CSP Paul plans to increase the efficiency?

Belén Gallego 6:12
Thank you very much. I will say with Stephen, I just wanted to take this opportunity to also thank the companies that made this content possible. You know, we build content thanks to the companies that support us doing that. These companies have Siemens, execute them and starting a whistle. We’re very thankful because thanks to them, the help that they give us were able to put all this really interesting presentations for you. So let’s go ahead. Okay. First, we’re going to hear from my words, then we’re going to hear from Stephen and then we’re going to take questions okay, you can use the q&a box to send the questions through and you know, for anything else you can use also use the chat and I won’t ask now on to stop sharing your screen so that he can prepare. It was a boys prepares his screen. I just wanted to remind you guys that We’re recording this session, as always, you know, many of you are already people who know that know as well. And we have the recordings available, and we’ll send them to you in a few days. So aglets are you ready with the presentation? Go ahead. Yeah. Yes,

Unknown Speaker 7:15
I already perfect. Yes, sir.

Belén Gallego 7:18
Can you put that in a large screen? Yeah, perfect. Okay, so we’re ready we can see your presentation Go for it.

Unknown Speaker 7:24
Okay. Well, first of all, I will explain representation I let a little representation of the company because in the last the last month, James okay because met with another be a Chinese company having a bigger loop. So, with up in Korea, the finance and so on, with a with a with a blind in the market and lyndale the I will focus because in terms of finance, more or less this there are the rules in China are similarly similar to the CSP place in the world. So how we can introduce new component because he’s amassed in the company is a must for the CSP market because of n politic on demand new new new companies I like to decrease the capex and OPEX. And what we carry out to a career, they’ve bankability money ratio of these components in the abroad. And later this be how we are focusing now the traditional mundaneness of the boy, because now we are in the last stage of my conditioning just to reach the full capacity of generation of a power plant, how to reach the vision of maintenance in a country that is difficult to produce foreign companies with a complete package like other parts of the world. So, how we are doing okay so, just to introduce you the name of the company now, the Sikh joined with a company called csps. See, now being is one of the biggest both bottleneck in our companies. And nowadays is more even more bigger as you can Serve in the in the screen being one of the legacy building in the in the market, but I just like to remark that 40% of the businesses said building on the 60% is manufacturing components a construction of a of equipments ABC player, the company half alone experience in wind sector because is one of the top 10 We bless a when players like a CMS like a missed us like a novice in a new market and also like introducing CSP because see that there are a lot of companies inside a company that can be useful in a the construction of a power plant. So, focus follow the presentation of a company I focus on the the presentation that will now is the core strategy now is in a commissioning phase of this power plant receives people are bland the capacity of a steam turbine is 100 political megawatts. 31 energy storage is 10 hours, where you see the data begin the construction was approximately April 2018. In ABC is crucial, we need to take into account that some companies foreign companies participate in this broad by for example, in the engineering part of the basic engineering career, Spanish combined, but the rest of the engineering of basic arm are already covered in WCS MD and jonte. With a design institute that is a must, because they need to they need approval of the Robbins and so on Wednesday, we go here in China blueprint in place of agreement. There are certain agreements of this international because China have a big on factoring capacity for and other companies who Korea the detail of the components of the pain of agreements and especially be part and political in terms of equipment to see companies to play your song subcomponents assisity helico selection and also heard by other local companies by Coastal Zone construction by venusaur. In commissioning, we are doing internally completely with Team foreign and Chinese team cooperating and also the local companies because is the same like engineering you need a local company that after the recession to Korea the condition so is the same rules and in terms of operational maintenance now we are teaching our team that is part of the conditioning. Now they were now is a better learning and then you got the conditioning to how the Korean version of maintenance and also internally fast like we are working in the journey and face current all the frustration zone.

Unknown Speaker 11:47
So, to have an idea about this kid or the power plan and we’ll begin the basic unit see at the beginning of 2018. And now we are finishing in the commissioner and getting or libertarianism unwise and so on some and sundry topics, me know these years and is more focused to help to the condition. And you see what it is necessary to remind remember everybody here in China they winter say them all to the winner is the battery. So lot for example busier in December and January, we have a means 20 during the sunny hours. So, it is impossible a politis festival to work but is not for no festival class so much. So we can see that in the different like all their countries, all the CS people were class experience. Now there are three months per year that the conditions to advance are no social table, like a for example in Spain, South Africa and so on. So, when you go out on a scale, a world this is a problem. I know that is like a big big capacity mobilization that the means Half a lot of workers have a lot of machinery so they recover the time during since April to September they advance of a of the construction that our plan is better the rest of the year needs no service okay we compared with us in this what I so photographs just to have an idea, begin the construction one November 2018 begin the construction will be in the next year of the of the pylons in the solar field and begin the construction of the main building. And you see that in one year, more or less intense on the construction all these finis and the piping has a huge advance and all the electrical currents and we have the one this is the eye the alien photo taking Reno’s feet in the race, increase muscle. Well, you can see that the oldest was released things but there are two areas here located that they is you will see ridiculousness, which is the reason he saw an alien Iran the developments for r&d of new power collector of this new power collector or a tower is the area of r&d. So, the proposal the company is we can get some energy we asked to the to electrical generation is permitted in the, in the in the aspect of the government. So, we have the old installations and we have already we don’t need another final CSP or intense of a solar field to play thing which is a Western, which introduced new in the in the in the European got in mirros or more joints and the most quantity mirros was acquired by a company and a half ago reference, but we introduce another Chinese company in the sector because they will we like to get the opportunity to have our reference in CSP. More Joyce is that will now supply to to combine dynamometer So, and there are no option now available in in China. In this or Metallica structure manufacturing assembly is in green color. Why? Because we’ve had willikers the head to all the foreign companies in a little scope of work to how is a geeks, how is the procedure for smart factory assembly, because we developed seminar workshops up to six months of manufacturing structure, only to take an account and you see the skill and the skill or complete sort of it was done in nine months or is but is the is is more of another that other brilliant so when you’ve been a lot of capacity of a high capacity of assembly, high capacity. And a that is in Greek or or is interested in new components that are don’t have referenced before. We all have literally deliverance more than by with this plan that we introduce in a second. So The ability in the other side of the screen we with this, this is a case of how will this to get the bankability to their finance because of the financial crisis. Okay Judaism compliance but you need to prove that this is a okay or not okay. So, in this operation dupes we use independent laboratories that are well known in the world to test the meters and use in a combined like all the brains and follow me for some of the fastest man is brilliant, intense Let me tell you structure we carry on prototypes that this field address or not. And we got to begin and this unnecessary dilemma the first photogrammetry

Unknown Speaker 16:43
analysis also explain because that is what they produced on Korea or southern Spain. So we’re not we can do this analysis just to prove because we can tell you Okay, every decision factor in the collector is spectacular. I know. I know that another company Particularly obvious analysis and you can do can expand this is not aware, but you can believe in us in this quality we realized that the quality system is not enough because the records the management pretty monotonous to avoid yes and how can the other element of it have a have a guest and get the feedback of all is really not okay. So, we have these will develop more intentional quality during the assembly of anatomical structure that is okay how is the central indecision factor, how is the tendency how we the statistical analysis with a lot of other have been just with a post to stop as loose as possible assembly lines, because we will request a high we have a tight schedule in terms of a solar field. Also, we got to discover that I don’t just for this sun company, so they like installation of our joints and also because they can’t process them. Full without a unit is new reference so we do this and also now we are testing loop we are testing well we got to the combined of this 20 loops in the Salafi and dilution of the selected authority and we’re beginning December where there is there is there is more to carry on with this because he’s when you have the sun in the worst conditions in this other bubble a is not so new okay because you have to understand your spouse a multinational companies half of the factory or maybe here in China. So this is another song from you. They remind you that these new is that there’s a face def with a modern SAS and this is something new. We got out also that this Independent Police to take the SPF rates and the models are okay or not okay, because it’s a critical component in a power plants will have a high impact in this of course. so intense and just the sheer Because we are speaking about the finance and so on, but in the finance the service loan the reduction of the cost the capex and optics, this is the focus for the company to reduce the cost of our brand and also but always maintaining the quality and reach the senior performers

Unknown Speaker 19:21
who have to have respective finance and more. So, first of all a record a lot of things in dense over the design we got into the second decision based on the concept of faith and know the with the maestro, much so this is high. Well, actually, of course, also, the development of this blade team, you say is we’re introducing requirements, lower costs, of course, and they EPC subcontractor in this in this Chinese companies and when Asia is an MVC play at Mobile, the Chinese are more focused into the world. Guru ratio in the manufacturing components management of a of the manager of big pockets. So this is where we get extra profit for their companies and a VM to have an idea more or less a rational the cost because this is our, this is our collective collective will now in the work that we say that the last four years in taking the reference of the course and we’re taking the conditions of China so that we can say that the total cost reduction is around 15. To 15% Okay, we got we can do to 15% you did total reduction, of course, this is a nificant we analyze in the finance and wallet. It is possible to reach a lower cost for Verizon in the in the second phase and now which is a reason that we have another one the idea we are trying to use new, the new product for collectors and you know you started In other parts of the world, a force in South Africa and an interview abroad Why? Because we you can read this Russian Of course of 10 or you got a we like to which of course, join the conversation of course and the new development on supply chain and the new concept in terms of the EPC local countries and the odd.or everybody like us to reach a lower cost of the of the power plants that they means a lower health care. So, well, this is more or less they have this ambition, but I hope to have our questions they go so you think it’s better to know who we just saw last and maybe open you

Unknown Speaker 21:47
will introduce you. I thank you very much.

Belén Gallego 21:52
Thank you very much. If you can stop sharing your screen there is a few questions for you so not not to worry. They’re coming your way Stefan You’re up next, if you wanna take the presentation up on the screen. And then with the questions after that, thank you very much guys for sending them through. There’s some of them that are a bit specific. We’ll see whether we can answer them but we will try our best if you can open up that for us

Unknown Speaker 22:19
are perfect.

Unknown Speaker 22:22
Yes. All right. So thank you. Thank you for the for the overview from there, let’s say overall plan perspective. And we are as as mentioned by it was quite happy that also in the plant, we could supply our steam turbine to set and on this page you see quite an overview our syllabi are above 70 power plants worldwide since 2005. And then first American and then then most of the Spanish planes started. So this this fleet and operation We gained a lot of experience and while providing those tools that’s for the different projects and the different areas the different applications, we of course, improve the efficiency on the one hand tied on the other hand will and a lot how to support overall business case for St. St. Paul bland. And so, we tried to contribute to the to the tremendous cost decrease for the SUV, which we could see from the other early 2000 years until until today. You see just the scheme of this ESP plant was many, many items it was already mentioned. We are focusing, let’s say at the moment as a component supplier on the steam turbine generator set. So, this I wanted to make clear right In the beginning that we from Siemens energy are at the moment on this, let’s say components supply serving the plant with our steam turbine, including including generator of course and supporting auxiliaries. But, we do not consider ourselves just as component supplier, we consider us as a partner for all the developers and EPC when they start to engineer to develop the project. And here we say well, we want to contribute this out and this is possible by early early involvement, because the efficiency and so in the end, the the success and the let’s say the benefit of the power plant is very much driven by the water steam cycle. Here, it starts Of course, with the selection of the technology, whether you go for a parabolic transplant or you go for a tower application of course, the size of the plant plant is important, whether we talking in the 15 megawatt erina hundred megawatt 200 megawatt and also and this is then the discussion about capex and OPEX How do you evaluate the Euro or dollar per kilowatt engineer, of course, then you can optimize in two directions on the one hand, you can talk about to maximize the electrical output at a given middlefield size. Or, of course, the other way around we could also minimize miraval middlefield sighs at a specific requested electrical output The optimum is always somewhere in between. But anyway, which light which way the product developer the project owner wants to go. We support this solution finding, let’s say, optimization of the water steam cycle. What a steam cycle means, we want to have a line to sign of the boiler and the condenser and in between them with our steam turbine, which transfers the steam into rotating and in the end in the generator into electricity. So this is let’s say the overall approach that we want to support right from the beginning for the optimal pilot solution.

Unknown Speaker 26:53
why this is so important the based on our

Unknown Speaker 26:59
knowledge Our steam turbine generator set is only somewhere between five to seven maybe 8% of the overall investment cost, if you built such a concentrated solar power plant, but this let’s say tiny portion has a heavy influence on the overall efficiency and on the overall lifetime cost. You can divide this topic into three different pillars. On the one hand, I already mentioned the performance. So here is about to have a best possible trade or a dimension. You can get this through the optimized for the steam cycle, but also, if it’s not always 100% sun is shining. A particle deficiency is important as a contributor for the overall result second pillar flexibility. So, depending on your plan set up whether you have a big storage, or you have a smaller storage whether you want to run overnight startup time, it’s important to be very quick on the crit, last minute changes. This is another point to react if the radiation is changing. And of course for the lifetime, the high number of possible starts of the equipment. Last but not least, it’s about availability. So, depending on your approach, we are talking 20 years, 25 years, maybe even more than 30 years of the lifetime and then to operational expenses come into account. And here we have, together with our service division. The topic was a maintenance the walls of course Long intervals and then if the services necessary short overhauled periods, and therefore, we have this long term service program, and which is also very important to mention our remote diagnostic system. I will come to more details on the later page. In the end, I always call it a team approach. Yeah. So, the boiler guys the cadenza guys we from steam turbines, if we work together, if we put the facts on the table exchange our ideas in the total in the Sunday can then create a successful solution for for the different power plants. Now, coming to the steam turbine, so, when the water seems like it is discussed, the technology is clear. The boiler input parameters in terms of the live stream is clear condition is here, then we go and look in our building proxy system to derive the right steam turbine solution for the particular project. And here we can then see which read concept is the right one to optimize the particular start times starts I already mentioned and also elaborate on the part load operation. And how we can do this we and I, for my knowledge we are the only steam turbine supplier in the world who brought its whole platform its own family to a new level. So, we have state of the art design which is done to be seen in different characteristics. So, compact design light weights through sin walls thicknesses and so on. And we also introduce latest technology like like three, 3d bow plating and so on. Besides this new development, of course, also the big fleet experience helped up to a half disproven startup reliability and

Unknown Speaker 31:23
behavior of evolve or load changes and so on.

Unknown Speaker 31:28
Means, whatever cycle we have be done design the best fit and and tailor made Tobin design to serve the requested solution in the in the best way. Now, coming to the to the lifetime cost, of course, over the lifetime for the old business case of the plant, the the main driver is the lowest possible OPEX and here

Unknown Speaker 31:59
we are On the left hand side, you can see this this picture.

Unknown Speaker 32:03
I already I already said about told about this remote diagnostics. So, in the upper part of the picture, you see a standard maintenance schedule which very fixed intervals, very static. When you decide for a Siemens flex LTP concept, including this RAM, remote diagnostics, we can really tailor the service intervals on your specific turbine. And according to them, let’s say specific life on all the experience your trauma and is doing in the in the fleet. So, the intervals are not strict, they are flexible, and most maybe most important was this. We try to to avoid any any unplanned outages. And this is I think the most important thing that you are under the turbine or the customer can run the turbine as as planned. Of course, with our global service network, we can support also a quick quick access to the to the different science sites, long maintenance doubles. I already mentioned one feature of this flex ltps and extended warranty periods. And the remote diagnostics I already mentioned. So, this a lot of content, a lot of features and things around toolset. I know you may question yeah, sorry. What does it help? Yeah, so in the beginning, I told you, our tool set it’s somewhere between five and 7% of the overall investment and to give you an idea about the different features for the different pillars, Making money, we did the calculation based on the 50 megawatt parabolic trough CSP projects, you find again there these three pillars availability, flexibility and performance. So, efficiency on the right and we say well compared as our technology or our solution compared to competition, we see the different differences and then we turned this differently into money. And you see, if you sum this up in this particular case, we would generate a customer value of close to half a million euro per year, which you can gain if you have an optimized solution with highest efficiency with high flexibility and availability compared with so called an honest solution. Now, this was important for Me also to give you a real figure and hand that you can, can Did you get the feeling? What what all these named features can can do? Well, and this is that I’m already done with the information I wanted to convey today for you. And now I’m very much looking forward to to your question and comments. Thank you very much.

Belén Gallego 35:24
Thank you very much, Stephen. And can I ask you to take off your screen so that, yes, I can actually see you better. Perfect. And I actually have a question on my own Actually, it’s for like for you, if you don’t mind first. And I wanted to ask you guys, I think by looking at all the dots in the in the in the map, you haven’t done all of this history plans, you have done most of them. And that means plants that have have been there for a long time. So I wanted to ask, you know, how has the technology or the way you adapt to it, like, changed in that time, you know, what are the lessons learned from all of that deployment in terms of with predicts needs because especially who fought for folks that are that might not be so familiar with a kind of information that we have, I mean, the gun industry that we have, you know, the sort of stop start thing you know, it’s something that is immediately you know, like, oh, how does that work? So I just wonder if you can comment a little bit of, you know, okay, we’re on this on this.

Unknown Speaker 36:20
I try. So, it started more or less in 2005 for specific Spanish plants and that time we had talking about 50 megawatt, we talked about read and parabolic. parabolic draft means quite low lighting parameters for us. So 380 degrees, something like this. And so we we looked into our at that time, available technique, and made a quote, and this time as a double casing, read machine. And and started to bit and then we ordered, got the first orders and we executed and while doing this, we learned was by talking to the developers talking to the epcs what what is behind and then step by step the whole community did learn. So, in South Africa then you saw already hundred megawatt in Morocco, then we have hundred 50 the not to even 200 megawatt. So, so we added and this is scaling up of the power plant sizes from my point of view is a major contributor for the cost out now, starting in Spain and 25 euro cents per kilowatt hour and now being in Dubai was something around seven. So many contributors bond contributed for sure is the scaling up from 2015. Now to 200. mega when it came down to tower, we had a different challenge because in tower you don’t have only 300 add creasy livestream you have 545 50 which is fine for our portfolio, but Compared to it with this parable, the prophets a different story, again, read. And so step by step, we learned and took the special requirements from the CSP folks into our r&d program. startups. I’ve already mentioned the times, and also the law changes. And this is a continuous process. We are in the middle at the moment, we are quoting also new plans and we are looking forward to to support the matter further.

Belén Gallego 38:31
Yeah, I was going to ask you, you know, what’s next, but I see that you’ve already kind of answered, looking forward to see those like critical steam and all of those, you know, really, and the technologies that are so promising in terms of efficiency. Okay, so here are a few of the questions and exits. I think I will expire and I’ll leave it up to the two of you, you know, a lot of questions about China’s commitment to CSP, what is next? How is it going to scale up? I know that is maybe not that much clarity. We would have liked but I mean we all recognize the importance of China in the world market you know, right now by the time it’s finished, it’s about more than 10% of the more even almost 20% of the of the total you know employment. So it’s a very important market that it gets ROI what do we know from your side?

Unknown Speaker 39:22
Well, now, to be honest, in our case with this on the components and those are those are great things to achieve the same quality and performance like there are other companies in the market all the solutions come from the top from the little range. Of course, there are significant costs of axial IPCC, it is okay but we recognize that is a necessary time to have the the complete power planning operation have these these feedback moment in terms of this police okay fulfilled by They passed the test but the requirements for the performance but I recognized on the market always and this market is so conservative in CSP compared with other markets. The question is feedback for the power plants and know how to say it is available these companies in the market it is possible that all the parts of the world all ABCs all the projects begin to take into account these costs because up to today and there are no so much new development of the supply chains on the end we are following the same supply chain like 15 years ago and will lead attendees and now fans containers market we have optional. This is a will knowing the type of energies not necessarily to take an account and the facility supply yourself a euro that get these introduce these companies have a huge a huge market. Well it is well now for somebody in his pain. That one EPC briard like to carry on Thank you. That’s the name, but introduce the panelists. Can you speak? Or was the was the biggest in these were interviews with via CPC Brian. So this is the same this is the same situation. Of course there are is recognized there are there are no feedback, how is the operational the overlap. But in our case, we’ve covered this on Willis biggest billion similar power plants and Bellamy’s analysis of a for somebody who spent 15 years ago, that was also very, very senior. So no fear of this.

Belén Gallego 41:35
Yeah, you can see the names of companies that are no longer with us language, that’s fine, just not with the ones that are no longer with us. But yeah, I mean, I agree. Like, at the end of the day, the PV supply chain, you know, people say, oh, babies do so well, it’s just be, you know, I hear this a lot. And I’m like, based on what, you know, 80% of the companies consolidated in PV, you know, it was so much change, you know, it was a very cutthroat as well. I mean, remember what happened. Germany and Spain. So, you know, industries need to consolidate in order to grow. That’s just the way it goes is the cycle you know, it’s one of those so all right there is Alina, you sent question twice ago, it’s actually answer it for you, which is why I went into a different folder. And you can’t find it. But basically, if you could we live with and also I leave it up to Stephen. What are the reasons behind the lower cost of the Chinese CSP? powerplants even though I have to disqualify the cost of them may be lower, but the tariff is actually quite good in China compared to other tariffs that were seen. So I don’t know what was the last of you will answer.

Unknown Speaker 42:39
Now what I answered why previously, but I can’t assume that if in China, so, in this ocsp we compared with other last news in the CSP plants in World War Two minutes, of course, but the reason is the need to develop a new suppliers, new suppliers so have lower costs and also it is important The VC structure is moderated, so, they they go structural take more responsibility of course, they are low risk in this of course, there are more risk and don’t have no suikoden packets and each packet either gone through the quality of manage is so gross by BBC black. So, in this way it is a festival to decrease a little profits that are in the lower blood, I mean in the origin of money. Now, this is the MPC configure it, it is normally said evolution of the market we see how the type of energy is ABC buyer, when the market is more mature, take more responsibility and assume more risk. So, this is the the main two keys of evolution. The other topics that is intentional design, this will design with ignore plan without a good high improvement, design of a of an intelligent simple idea but they will Know that the sun all the power plants a conduit before so is this is not you okay this is not new or not no significant change in China This is more about this is more likely that the other combined

Belén Gallego 44:13
thank you very much segue it’s not one for you Stephen. A lot of people here are mentioning hydrogen hydrogen, you know it just gonna be complimentary is it not you know how can one helping one another and I mean as soon as you guys do pretty much everything I know you have like a strong hydrogen r&d department or you know there are people working on that. So I mean, what is your take on this and have you guys doing anything in order? I mean, I suppose there’s two questions here right there is the technology side and then there is the market side You know, so, if you can tell us like your views on that.

Unknown Speaker 44:45
So as you said, We from segments we are into Queen hydrogen. That is that is right and just last year, there was a quite a widely announced kickoff of the panel. Plant in the UAE dealing dealing with green hydrogen. I’m but I’m not the expert into that. And so

Unknown Speaker 45:10
I don’t want to guess and and to

Unknown Speaker 45:15
be not really sure anyway

Unknown Speaker 45:18
if you have from renewable energies, whether it’s wind than its PV whether it’s concentrated so if you have electricity available, my thinking is that this is a good renewable energy on a low price level mouth because it is a situation like it is sunny lunchtime with a lot of storm and then you may have a lot of sun power and a lot of wind power available at lowest or even negative pricing. And then definitely, this is a right idea to try to capture this available energy and transfer it into degree hydrogen So this is a statement I can do

Belén Gallego 46:02
think, very carefully stated. Okay. There is a several questions here about the efficiency of the steam turbines, you know whether they work at half loads. One of those is how much is the efficiency of your steam turbine? And how much does the overall cycle efficiency reach. Then another one says,

Unknown Speaker 46:21

Belén Gallego 46:22
a 400 megawatt turbine is that partial load still working? So, that was another, you know, 60% 50% 40%. So, they said specific technical questions. There is one here that I think it says, you know, how much you know, do you need to switch them, like turn them off, which you don’t need to turn them off? That’s the point of steam. So, you know, it work better if you don’t stop them, but it depends on how much load you have in the sand. So a bunch of different ones like on that efficiency side. You wouldn’t even there is one step on the docks of all Can you scale down to 10 megawatts, so maybe you could talk about All these different things

Unknown Speaker 47:01
now? Yes, of course you can scale down. Yeah. So in our portfolio, we have very tiny starting with some hundred kilowatt up to the huge turbines from, from our colleagues from the utility turbine. So this is principally technically possible, but it’s always a question whether it makes economically sense. And here, then early I said for the for the CSP plans, we see one big lever to get the lcV down was scaling up from 50 to 200 megawatt This is potshots large scale, correct. And now, vice versa, if you say well scale it down, then potentially you have again, higher cost, understand the pants. What the different developers it’s different Ministry of Energy are willing to subsidize or not, but storage you have or not? Are you remote in a little village somewhere in the desert, somewhere connected to the crit. So it’s always depending on the concrete situation, but I can tell you, we are in contact also these different companies elaborating on the small ones. Because I think in the future, we will have both Yeah, we will have the big large scale connected to crit whether connected is PV or not, I don’t know but and we will have decentralized solutions. This rental, maybe in one container. Yeah. Which are for remote places also to to give the power to the people there. It’s always a question of the Congress situation, but I can tell you we are in contact with some companies to exactly also

Unknown Speaker 48:54
research on the small ones.

Belén Gallego 48:57
And this is a question I want to send it to the both of you And see what is the thinking getting commercial potential of a supercritical co2 turbine in a CSP plant? I know there’s a lot of research on this. But

Unknown Speaker 49:09
yeah, now that we know and we also got many and often questions about it, and well increase the efficiency of a water steam cycle. It’s always clear if you increase temperature and pressure that that helps. Again, the point is, does it make economic sense? So, when you switch go above 565 and 70, you have some other costs levels also for the balance of plant material, boiler material. If you go beyond 600, you have the next gentleman be say home fix the cost and so the next jump in in costs For the overall so the module itself, this is one thing, the efficiency is the other thing, but what it makes for the overall plan costs. Yeah. And here To be honest, I I’m,

Unknown Speaker 50:13
I’m very much interested to see

Unknown Speaker 50:17
how this will turn out, we are following it. Now. So, we have also broke from running to investigate subtitles but it is quite far for for the commercial operation.

Belén Gallego 50:35
Anyway, so, you want to add anything that

Unknown Speaker 50:38
would the NA factor, I cannot so much because of the language speaking of the two bites, of course, but I have to say that the days of the now when you decrease the price of a of an addition to the right to said being to be to focus of course in the knology achieve more if this had bigger efficiency, or the total performance, or the power plant body, the cost is a must. So it’s like you balance say, we take, we are now taking for the nice basis of a china and all the droids, which is the best a coffee with Asian and we maybe some competence I don’t know they have a little less efficiency, but the price is so lower. It is better to introduce and you lose a little efficiency in the power plant, of course. Um, but in terms of a serious financial model, the solution is best. So it’s not competitive. It’s not competitive.

Belén Gallego 51:47
bankable right, likeability is a big deal as well.

Unknown Speaker 51:50
Yeah, we’re all always taking an online community but a welcome to a not a what brothers are bankability, a battery you have one brother. That is cheaper, so much cheaper basically, not not not only was everything okay more difference, but you have a little difference in efficiency, it is better to introduce a company that have a lower efficiency. Because again, yes, we focusing the efficiency, this is some technical ability to take into account that the market is speaking this economical and the market is ok. CSP can achieve a lower price of 768 cents dollar per kilowatt. This is the main course in the market and you need to take an account, of course, the course.

Belén Gallego 52:34
Okay, let me ask a couple more questions. One is definitely for Stephen says Do you have any r&d activities ocsp plus gas turbines? I know there’s been some projects but I don’t know whether there’s anything current

Unknown Speaker 52:49
actually not really to my knowledge. But we have CSP in connection with was discussed online,

Belén Gallego 52:58
to be honest, the standard of the industry right now. interments. I mean, no questions asked, you know, that’s what we’re asking. But I know that there’s been a lot of r&d and at least in the past in terms of government, but I don’t know the results of that or what happened either. And another of the questions here is about the market. So there’s two and I’m going to combine them, one of them talks about do you think in the next year we will ccsp replace coal? Or even if we integrated in other power plants, and if so, what is your expected horizon and someone else asks, you know, what are the markets that you see for the next decade? So I want to combine them both

Unknown Speaker 53:36
us Europe, Europe.

Unknown Speaker 53:38
So good question.

Unknown Speaker 53:42
Over from 2005 to today, as I said the two years of nice decreased so now we are on seven or eight depending on the interest rate, maybe also nine cents per kilowatt, means the bridge to the conventional coal fired power plant or gas fired power plant is very small compared to the initial pitch we had in Spain. And anyway, at the moment, to be honest and open, the market is quite slow. Now be. And here. This is a topic where I’m struggling with how to how to market this CSP technology towards energy ministries. Yeah. So last time in Madrid, we also talked about it we CSP experts, we are clear and we say, Well, this is renewable. And it’s dispatchable. Yeah. And in combination with PVV, from come below seven, maybe five, and they said it, you need to finance. So in China, all the boundaries are there. But still out of the 20 pilot projects only six or seven materialized at just two missing financing because the bank says Oh, we don’t trust We don’t support it. So, technology is there, you need the political willingness, the you need the banks, and then projects will come. And here the point is how to reach out. I mean in Morocco is fine other qinger and the colleagues from ASEAN and they did a great job and this is a clear roadmap there, but I can’t see in other countries in the Sunbelt area, this same development hands, project development is at the moment very, very slow. And this is of course, the pity of all the industries who grew up this boom in Spain and South Africa. Now, they need to have more in the pipeline to to survive and even more further develop the technology. And this is for me, the crucial situation I mean, you are also also nice coming with the Aqua diva project. But we need some more how to convince this the government Just to invest into this technology as one option in the energy mix now, it’s not about replace or qualified plans. It’s not about replace or gas, whatever. This is not the topic, but it’s a nice and reasonable and effective possibility within the energy mix.

Belén Gallego 56:21
Yeah, I mean, definitely things are changing. And they, I mean, we have now moved towards hundred percent renewables in a lot of places, the more variable renewables you put on then the more you need firmness. You know, firmness is not something, you know, elected like politicians or regulators were breeds thought about, you know, they needed energy. It was delivered when they needed it. And that was it, you know, the burn. Coal is easy enough, but when you have two axes, and one of them says, My demand and another one says my resource that’s very different, and we just need to make up a new system, you know, with a lot more things. So this is exactly what we’re talking about. You know, one of the things that came up In the US was that in the US conference I just went to is that part of the problem is that at the moment, there is no need for these, like 15 hours of storage in there, because they have guys that have this they have that is patched up. So they’re like, Oh, I need one hour, me two hours, I need, you know, a little bit of frequency here and there, you know, just little things. But in five years time, you know, in 10 years time, you start disconnecting all of that, and all of a sudden, you realize, oh, that I shouldn’t have spent this amount of money, all these little things where I needed is the thing that actually sorted out all of these problems in one go, you know, it is one of those things, right to make the grid, some stand, don’t think about your needs. Now think about your needs in 10 years time, because you’re building infrastructure. You’re not, you know, just, you know, you know, how many times does it have been in many countries a visit where you go in there, like, oh, we’re building the new airports, but the new airport was approved 30 years ago. So by the time I go now, it’s an old airport that has been built, you know, is this kind of thing with infrastructure. Anyway. Okay, just one more question final again, one has been just sent now, how many days? Or can you store energy for I know this is like a little bit of a sliding scale. So in terms of CSP, you guys, like how many days is feasible? I mean, technically you could stall for as long as you want, but physical internally financially to store in the case, for example, the Chinese market?

Unknown Speaker 58:28
Well, in terms of a finance, you both have icsp blunk is to reach a 4000. Our signal in our spirit here is meet us, a sky in us as much as possible is better. It depends, of course, on the price of electricity because sometimes you request a storage or the storage is not profitable. Yes. I’m following your last comments are the stories and now it’s not mine. And now they publish publish already. Legally storage because they political system have enough capacity to to to govern the rest of the nation today Sunday night, but they have two more intellectual have a non disposable energies of more growth of coal power plants and nuclear and so on. You need storage you need to configure in bigger storage and this is the big advantage of thermal energy storage, increasing the market it is clear it is global, it is cheaper it is the cheaper solution. On a CSP they come to the solar solar sort of running. For example, in the case of food at the radio is full of wind plants and PV plants the rain and calf in the Indus what in the village that is close to the power plant 20,000 habitants have a combined cycle that is only when this is a public speaker just to avoid the BS To talk to them. So with the VSP plant of Buddha, the speaker a well the efficiency us when we lower this is the best sample, what is the ratio because this speaker is a must by the by the government, because the price of Vegas in Israel is so much expensive is impossible to is not in office you have a feeling of feeling or by the government. So, this is a one of the results of CSP, for example, in China. Now, China have a procedures that are investing a lot of money into this political race. This is nothing, this is nothing on money that they we don’t see and the price that we have to take into account is not the care of the blood is the essary in your house. This is the price that we have to take into account and you have a baby you have a non disposable energy unit abarca How is it goes live aka How is the cost of extra electrical rain. So and this is of course, this is a decision of the government This is a benefit to the organization. Not a all the companies saying

Belén Gallego 1:01:02
essentially you need the government’s to pull up. Yeah. I like to live in a positive note. I spoke in the last week at this conference in other times people in Australia and South Africa and Chile in the US. Yes, it’s true. They wouldn’t have the firm that the firm knows that. But believe me, when you talk to any of the greets people, the politicians, they all know that there is this need this kind of like, yeah, whether whether we’re having the struggles, he has would aware that California is having this troubles eliquid aware that. So it also looking like you know, starting to end, especially with 100%, renewables things, you know, Chilean companies are starting to askia but how are you going to manage this power at night, you know, some of the things that are starting to move in the right direction, where I cannot offer, unfortunately, is a time frame around it. But I think things are moving, you know, in the right direction. So I just like to thank you very much aglets. Thank you very much for your expertise today. also like to thank, of course, the people who know the people, the companies that have made this possible, we cannot create all this content that is great and really keeps the industry in form if we don’t have the support of companies like Siemens, like SQL, la Sterling and Wilson that help us put it all together. So thank you very much to all these three companies for making this possible. And to all of you who are here today, thank you as well and see you next time.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:23
Very much.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:24
By the way, that’s my life.

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