Recording and presentations: Solar for commercial and industrial (C&I) heat

30 January 2020

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Automated transcription (it may contain errors)

Belén Gallego 1:14
Good morning. Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, this is just a little note to let you know that we’re going to wait one more minute to allow people to come into the room. And I’d like you to take to the chat and introduce yourselves. I’ve already introduced myself, make sure that you copy all panellists and all attendees so that we can already just tell us you know, your name your company, and we’ll continue joining from thank you very much and see you now.

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to begin now. But first before I start, I just like to say party if you must really love this, we love to have you here but you know, it’s really, really early in Denver. So, you know, welcome. I see there are people here from Australia as well. So you know, you guys, you know, people from Beirut, Chile. So there are people who are very, very early there are people who are in the middle of the night. So obviously, and this is something we’ve known for a while. It’s a subject That, that interest you a lot, you know, and that you’ve been working on for many years. So thank you very, very much for joining us today. Today we’re going to be talking about heat for the solar, solar heat rather for the commercial and industrial part of the, of the energy debate, I suppose. So one of the things we know is that electricity is only about, say 20% or 30% of the energy we need. I think it’s 28. I think Martin, and you can probably tell us more specifically, but actually, the heat that we use, the energy that we use to heat up for industrial processes is much much higher than that it could be nearly 50%. So this is why it’s very important that in our in our in our universal work, decarbonizing, we’re looking at these commercial industrial processes, and decarbonizing them because they are going to be this heat is going to be the one that makes the biggest difference in terms of carbon reduction, but it’s also a times the hard This people to convince so with us today, we’ve got two experts on the topic. So I’d like to ask first, Martin, if you can please introduce yourself briefly in where you’re joining us from.

Unknown Speaker 4:17
We can hear oh now. All right. Can you hear me?

Unknown Speaker 4:22
Yes, now. So good morning. Afternoon evening, everybody. My name is Martin. I’m the commercial director of retarget ag. We are based in Cologne in Germany. And we are specialised in industrial process heat, steam generation.

Belén Gallego 4:45
Thank you very much. You’re going to hear from Martin shortly. Anki GMO, please tell us how to pronounce your name properly and also introduce yourself.

Unknown Speaker 4:55
My name is Guglielmo possibly my mother didn’t know that. I was going to entertaining international career. So, this is very difficult to pronounce. I am calling you from Geneva from tbp solar We are the producer of a new generation of solar thermal flat panel, the high vacuum flat panel that has support for energy production at industrial temperature up 280. Thank you and I am also would say the let me say vice chair of the European solar thermal technology platform and that is a European party dedicated to the promotion of solid

Belén Gallego 5:39
thank you very much good yellow and you know, I joined on the club of my mother didn’t know I was going to to have an international crowd so completely understand you, you know there are difficult names. However, we’re here today to learn a lot about solar steam for commercial and industrial application. So please Martin, if you can share the presentation. I’m really looking forward to here You know, this is something a lot of people have been working for a long time. So and we’re getting closer, you know, there is more and more interest around this. So please, if you can share your screen. Okay, and was market share screen, I just want to remind you guys of a few things. So many of you have already been in our webinars before. We had a presentation from Martin, then a presentation from yamo. And then finally, we’ll take questions as many as we can at the end. We are recording this session, so don’t worry, the recordings will be available and we will be available, you will be able to download the presentations as well. So go ahead, Martin.

Unknown Speaker 6:37
Yes. Thank you.

Belén Gallego 6:41
For the questions. Make sure to you send them through the q&a box at the bottom. Okay, we’ll take them from there. And keep introducing yourselves from in the chat. I see there are people from literally everywhere.

Unknown Speaker 6:54
Are you having problems marketing with a screen with me? Give me one second.

Belén Gallego 6:58
All right. So let’s review can send a little bit of a heads up neck. Brussels The Hague burly people from Germany, India, Nigeria, Ghana. Chile. Oh, you’re ready. Perfect. Excellent.

Unknown Speaker 7:13

Unknown Speaker 7:17
All the country with lots of sunshine. Welcome. So yeah, thank you everybody wants more for joining us here. As I’ve been already introduced, my name is Martin. I’m the director of pro target ag. Here in Cologne in Germany. Our company is specialised in industrial process heat and steam generation. Here in Cologne is where our design offices and prototype manufacturing unit we have a second unit In the east of Germany and cabinets, where we produce vacuum receivers for parabolic trough connectors, we also have a local manufacturing resources in India and Agila which also tells you something about two of our key markets. What is important is that our technology as we approaching the industrial sector is approved to various standards, for example, European pressure directive, Indian boiler regulation and also impanelled for the Indian market, which, for some of the customers is important because makes our technology eligible for Indian subsidies. We have built an operating commercial plans in Germany, Cyprus, India and also Brazil and with currently new projects in development and construction in Chile, some more in Cyprus, Jordan and India. So, in summary, what is our objective here at pro target is to supply solar steam boiler systems for process heat and steam application and we are engineering unit to provide CSP services for all relevant projects worldwide.

Unknown Speaker 9:43
Something about our technology

Unknown Speaker 9:47
SS creepily introduced we using the parabolic trough technology. For this we have developed a collector module that is specifically designed for industrial application in harsh climatic environments

Unknown Speaker 10:05
it is

Unknown Speaker 10:08
a parabolic trough collector with three metres aperture and it contains basically all the technical features you are probably well familiar with from the large scale power plants for utilities and electricity generation. In our case, it is designed for industrial process heat supply with temperatures of up to 420 degrees, which is probably one of the key features of this model. As Baron has briefly introduced, what what is our target market it is the the heat demand of the industry and that’s the majority of the energy That the industry is in need of its three quarter of the energy consumed in the industry is for process heat and steam. The sad news or for us The good news is 90% of that is still generated with coal, oil and gas. This demand this process heat demand is continuously increasing. In particular in development countries where more and more industries for example, the food industry is picking up what is the temperature range or what are the branches and the temperature ranges that are in demand of this thermal energy? So, most thermal processes In the industry on the range of hundred 250 degrees in order to provide those temperature levels conventional fuel boilers are typically operated in the range of hundred 50 to 200 degrees. So, this is the, this is our enemy, the conventional fuel boiler that is burning dirty heavy fuel oils Masood diesel gas would you name this is the technology we want to substitute.

Unknown Speaker 12:39
How do we do this? We instal

Unknown Speaker 12:43
rows of mirrors, parabolic mirrors, we use the sun’s energy to heat up the heat transfer fluid to 400 degrees and more with this heat transfer fluid. We basically Go into conventional heat exchanger, steam boilers and provide steam at any temperature and flavour the customer requires it. Obviously, since we are primarily generating thermal energy we are able to store it and provide steam and heat also during the night or in periods of bad weather. Because even in the Atacama Desert, we will find days without sunshine, rarely, but it happens. Such a steam boiler system is typically integrated in parallel to the existing infrastructure it’s deemed infrastructure of the customer. This means the solar system acts as a fuel saver rather than completely replacing the system.

Unknown Speaker 14:00
So, the focus actually now of my presentation is to

Unknown Speaker 14:08
show you some details about the economy of such a fuel saver system and for this we compare a conventional steam boiler with a solar boiler. So here you have a direct comparison on the left side, good and fine gentlemen, steam boiler that you might find in any any place on the world in the backyard of any factory and it is a it is a very good piece of equipment. And don’t get me wrong on that it has low investment cost. It operates with oil and gas which is a fuel that is widely available. It has a standardised size Most important, it is proven and reliable. So, nothing wrong about conventional steam boiler. The disadvantage though is it has high operating costs and it emits carbon dioxide. This is the point where we want to we want to angle it, we want to substitute the fuel lock the boiler we want to substitute the fuel with the solar boiler. So, the solar boiler on the other hand is then integrated in parallel to this boiler. acting as a fuel saver we provide steam directly into the infrastructure which has as a result that the conventional fuel boiler reduces its fuel consumption significantly. Here we have an example of a five Tom boiler which is a quite typical set In the industry, the boiler provides demond hundred 70 degrees 10 bar runs 10 hours a day, five days a week, which results in 2200 operating hours per year. On the left side the fuel boiler has fuel costs of 700 euro Tom, you find countries where fuel is more expensive, you find lots of countries the fuel is less expensive, but this just to give you an average value the annual cost this is just the fuel cost of the conventional fuel boiler would then result in 550,000 euro per year. The annual operating cost of the solar system would only be 50,000. Because it is down to cleaning the mirror and maintaining the system and that’s it. So this results in a cost saving of Half a million euro a year. To go a bit deeper into the economics of a solar thermal system, what would it mean for you, for example, as a customer let’s stick to the five Tom, our boiler, the solar boiler. This will mean investment costs of about 2 million euro. Obviously, banks are involved in this you’re gonna lend the money on average loan 5% the year we have the 50,000 euro annual O and M cost when we assume the O and M cost increases 2% a year the fuel cost with 700 euro Tom also increases at the rate of 2% a year. And in summary, this results in a fuel saving for you a 550 50,000 euro per year not to be forgotten the co2 reduction almost from this depends on basically then on the fuel you’re using almost 3000 tonnes per year. More important the investment is paid back just on the fuel savings in three to four years and generating you a significant cost saving in the following years. So in this result in this graph, as you can see in year 10, you have generated net savings of 4 million euro and the economy of office DST system is mainly driven by the fuel costs. And as I said before, the fuel costs are quite different in the various countries. This graph shall give you an idea on the amortisation of the system in relation to the fuel costs.

Unknown Speaker 19:10
Obviously there are countries where fuel is heavily subsidised. They are countries that have market values for the fuel they are us. This graph show give you an average overview what a CST system can generate you in terms of payback period independency of the fuel cost. So, I’m already coming to

Unknown Speaker 19:49
the summary of my presentation.

Unknown Speaker 19:54
But then the message is in industrial areas where steam is pretty used in a conventional boiler may be powered with diesel age of old Masood, you name it at for example 700 euro a tongue. We are looking at steam generation costs of 50 euro petrol. With our CST technology you are able to generate steam at 10 euros at on, which obviously is a reduction in steam cost of about 80%. We also as a company we are also offering here, open em agreements or energy contracting model to take away any financial burdens from you or any technical risk the mighty image. This technology is not designed for Germany where it is produced. It’s designed for desert it’s designed for the Atacama. It’s designed for harsh climatic environments, and it will last 20 years in this environment. Man. So this protects you from any further food price increase, or any other externalities such as carbon taxes, and so on. So my message is, we’re sunshine and land is available, and fuel hasn’t mail you. The CST technology is the most suitable for thermal energy generation.

Unknown Speaker 21:29
Thank you very much for your attention, everybody.

Belén Gallego 21:34
Thank you very much marketing, I suppose after hearing your pitch, which is really good way very convincing. The question is, you must not use when are we keeping up with the man that you have? But anyway, we’ll have we will. We save the questions for later if you can please stop sharing the screen and we mo go ahead you share your screen then you give your presentation It is insane when you look at the numbers you know just how advantageous so let’s hope we can break a little bit of the narrative of these companies you know the way they think about their investments All right, you already got your

Unknown Speaker 22:12
sum up Hello everyone. As I said, I am going to introduce to you the our GDP solar system. We are bringing this technology to the market after 10 years of research and development and after we be a fully functioning production unit two years ago. So this is to be considered a new generation of solar thermal flat panels insulated by high vacuum inside the box. So it’s a rather new now it’s a breakthrough product that will enable the production of solar heat for industrial process and is designed for the labs instance. So what you’re seeing on the screen now is an actual solid feed. You see it looks very much like a traditional flat panel, but it’s performance in a completely different range. These solar collectors have a particularly high efficiency is one second.

Belén Gallego 23:24
Yes, I do move into the presentation forward.

Unknown Speaker 23:27
Not Okay.

Unknown Speaker 23:30
Perfect. I’ll tell you when I do I just focusing on the fact that the product has been designed for industrial application and for temperature between 60 and 180 degrees and the main difference with work now

Unknown Speaker 23:48
you see the new slide? Yes. So perfect. I just

Belén Gallego 23:53
moving the move. That’s fine.

Unknown Speaker 23:55
The main difference with what has been presented by mastering is the Flat collectors, I mean any collector collectors ours included can collect a very efficiently posted a direct light and the diffuse component. So, we are not just able to produce such temperature in a very dry climate with the direct light but also in fog it does the cloud the clouds and I want to jump in immediately into the issue of the integration with the industrial process because this is the kind of worry that most of industrial operator and adopters of our technology are showing and So, where do we put our our heat So, what you are seeing is extreme exemplification or an industrial process heat Typically esteem is growing produce the 10 bar and distributed over the factory and then use the different temperatures. So, in reality, the consumption of heat does not really happen with steam attempts, but rather at lower temperatures sometimes in the form of hot water sometimes before of local SST we are facing such cases on a daily basis with our with our clients. So in where do we can integrate the solar heat that we would use with our solar basically at the level of the application for hot water up 280 degrees, I will show you a case which we are actually operating right now at 180 degrees or we can simply integrate the heat going back into the boiler by raising the temperature of

Unknown Speaker 25:57
so this is

Unknown Speaker 25:58
a typical boy feedwater preheat.

Unknown Speaker 26:02
We believe that this makes it as simple as possible to integrate the solar field into an existing process and to retrofit existing industrial industrial sites because to be clear our authority that works in his closest, so we provide the heat the final application by means of a heat exchange. So in any case, the user becomes independent by the solar field and can only use the upside of our energy production to reduce their their fuel consumption.

Unknown Speaker 26:49
I don’t like to show very much these

Unknown Speaker 26:51
graphs, but it’s important for me to tell you a couple of things and first of all, the collectors are simplified in depth before. So as many other solar flattened liquid pipes, the performance that we claim is not only something that we measure, but it’s been validated and certified by third parties, in this case in particular, by the solar keymap. The organisation so in this case, what I’m showing you here is the efficiency of the banner at different package. And I’m doing these in comparison with other 75 products in particular flat rate for like those are evacuated. So you see that most other certified product stop at 100, the maximum hundred 20 degrees I mean, their certification does not go above that threshold. And instead the TV piece or college collector goes up 280 degrees and there is a signal began the performance again. I mean it had industrial grade temperature like hundred degrees. So, with the full sun, which means with the full daylight that the media day our collectors are already more performing by 25 to 70%. So, for example 70% compared with a with a flat plate

Unknown Speaker 28:25
and then of course, we can go higher.

Unknown Speaker 28:28
But I believe that what is more meaningful for most final adopted is what happens when the sun is not fooled when we have a average day like conditions, because these is what we actually achieved over the full year we have conditions of good sun and average and when the sun is not at full capacity when we are at house than that then you see that the big difference in in energy production, India and all of us what we can is the energy production. And in this case, you can see that the high vacuum inside of it makes a difference. Already at 120 degrees, we are between three times or 10 times depending on what collective compared to with a with a traditional. This is an example of one installation that we had already were operating since almost one year. This is in Abu Dhabi. So it’s a high radiance gallery. It’s not the very largest solar feed, hundred 50 kilowatt, but it works every day at the hundred 70 degrees for a rabbit factory, making a real difference in terms of energy consumption. And these are measured the data the solar average, see temperature, efficiency over the year is the same. He works on the union data and the What is most important is that these solar speed basically does not need any clean. So, we were talking about operational costs that the solar field has very low operational costs, because basically, it does need only some electricity to let the pump circulated fluid, but it does not really attention and clean

Unknown Speaker 30:23
it just to give you

Unknown Speaker 30:25
a clear number, the difference between the expected production of this collectors in this particular case and what is actually mentioned is only 8%. And this 8% less production depends on the fact that there is dirt accumulated on the panel because of annual americlean. And so but this is a you know, a trade off so that you can accept it you like in return of the simplicity of this. He said, we are building right now, and it’s in France. So in a very difficult different locations situation and it’s a larger one is one megawatt and we feed the hot water at 140 degrees in the return to the boiler for a metre. So in this case, you see the energy field is about the energy savings, it’s about hundred 30,000 cubic metres of gas to the to the factory and if we work extended the time like 12 hours a day by means of a thermal storage, thermal storage in this case is just a tank accumulating. So, there are measurable results of these technology and we measure it in terms of savings and savings are substantial over the year. This is a case for example, not in a very hot climate, but in the European basically anytime and the So, this is something that you can achieve by complementing it typical hot water boiler or a steam boiler with I don’t want to go into more detail graphs because I but you would be curious to know about the the OPEX and carpets of such Excellent, so I’m putting them right there. Any typical setup that we would suggest is Google around the 3000 square metre apartment that would produce like, between 1802 men and 2000 kilowatt depending on the climate. And the karbix was such a system would be around 1.1 point five

Unknown Speaker 32:43

Unknown Speaker 32:44
and their OPEX is about 3.1 euros per square metre per year. So about 9000 case. The cost of general energy resulting from such as a doctor without considering any subsidies or government support would be between 25 and 40 euros per month that I believe is today’s cheapest source of energy costs that is natural gas. The economic assumptions between this big behind these numbers is that solar plant lifetime is 25 years and diesel and without including any facilitated finance. Of course, you might ask, How do you know that the plant will last 25 years that we have submitted our product to accelerated stress is both for both for corrosion and for thermal cycling. And so now we are confident that the duration of the product is 25 years and by the way we have we provide guarantees for quarterfinals. So just to go quickly. I just quickly want to show you that we have also the cooling application because we have been talking about commercial, I mean the topic should be also commercial application. And we have already established some application by using an absorption chiller fed by our solar feed at 90 degrees or hundred 65 degrees depending on what kind of Kingdom This is a practical application we have already established, for example in Kuwait and and can provide substantial savings in terms of electricity, for example, for large residential indicates or but but anyway, it’s in competition with a very efficient electric our cooling system. So therefore we believe that is most suitable for very hot cap trees in which we use the liquidity cooling sense for the whole Yeah, the alternative to the symptoms, if I have donated to these would be to have a dual use of other celebrities. For example, in the case of European crime, we are proposing to sort of lead in the in a duel configuration that can provide hot water therefore space heating during the winter and space cooling during the summer. I’m not sure if I stayed in the time I hope so. And of course I am eager to get questions. Thank you.

Belén Gallego 35:32
Thank you very much. We mo Yeah, you done a great job and I’m going to ask you just to stop sharing so that people can see you a little bit better. And we have a lot of questions. So if you think if you agree with this Go right ahead for them if you want to open and you see any specifically you like to answer or to go for them. I’ve marked some of them that I think are important. And also one thing m will take about maybe 1015 minutes you Usually more questions come in as we’re going. So, you know, we’ll see how we’re doing. All right. So one of the questions here, let me see if I can find it because I had marked it says, do you implement? Sorry, let’s just move on to energy contracting models in India. I think this is for you, Martin. Was it was a question that came around your time we have now

Unknown Speaker 36:28
now, okay, can you hear me? Yes, we we implement energy contracting models also in India. trade for what he asked.

Belén Gallego 36:38
What is the minimum This is for the two of you thermal capacity of the solar field for which CSP is competitive in comparison to conventional boiler so we’re talking about scale here.

Unknown Speaker 36:50

Unknown Speaker 36:54
starting starting the answer with with it depends. I don’t like this. It depends, but It really does. It depends on the solar radiation and on the fuel costs you have. But let’s say our technology is geared up for industrial applications. And for us, this starts the capacity of half a tonne of steam per hour 500 kilogramme of steam per hour. Technically, it works smaller, but economically it starts to become difficult.

Belén Gallego 37:32
You know, this question has been answered in many ways. It’s been asked in several ways. So someone had asked, What are the minimum sunshine values which I you know, DNA I suppose, is the right thing to say here, valuable and necessary. So, what is the minimum DNA that we need? What is the fuel value to make CS be competitive? So, they’re trying to ask you the same question in different ways. So, I suppose, yeah, explain and try to frame it the

Unknown Speaker 37:59
least for our Technology. It’s really a combination of the available irradiance and the operating temperature that you are looking for. For example, if you want to be competitive with any kind of fuel with our technology, even with the cheapest one, if you are for example in a European style a climate like 1000 300,400 kilowatt hour per square metre on gh shy and not DNI then I guess that you should stay in the range between 80 and 110 degrees. If you are, for example, in in the Middle East, or something like that, then you can reach higher temperature and still be competitive with the local fuel that typically is more expensive than the gas in Europe. So it’s really a combination of these three factors, I mean location, and if you were costs and insights, of course, but I want to answer the question on sides, our sincerity is designed to be implemented from 300 kilowatts above and not lower than that. But generally speaking, the big threshold in economy of scale happens when we’re talking about 5000 Square. There’s that for about a couple of megawatts.

Belén Gallego 39:22
Martin do not. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 39:25
One of the question was edwige solar radiation, does it make sense to instal this technology? And let’s put it that way. A few months ago, let’s say half a year ago, my answer would have been it starts at 1500 dm I, he and I is direct normal irradiation, and that is probably something we find in the Mediterranean, North America. Rain in areas. Then end of last year, for example, German government talked about a carbon tax, which suddenly moved that scale a little bit up and then beginning of this year, they have even increased the value of this carbon tax. So the benefit of installing a carbon neutral technology has suddenly increased, and suddenly we can live with lower DNA. So in summary, now, it would even make sense to instal it in Germany.

Unknown Speaker 40:36

Belén Gallego 40:37
I have to say also, just this, I suppose, is bad news. In some ways, it seems like the price of gas is gonna go down again, because of supply. Looks like a lot more supply is going to be made available. So we’ll see. I mean, this is, you know, this is what people are talking about right now in the news, but we’ll see how it goes. So that could again affect the other way around this person. Okay, I’m gonna do some more questions. Okay, what about space requirements? Can you give people like an idea of how much room they need for the systems and whether they can be placed on the roof?

Unknown Speaker 41:13
Well, in our case, surely they can be placed on the roof. The average weight of the solar field is 50 kilogrammes per square metre. And the the footprint is basically 1.8 times the actual collectors across area. So that’s a 40,000 square metre you will need 1000 square metre over.

Unknown Speaker 41:42
farting. In our case the technology is primarily designed for ground installation. We can be mounted on the roof but typically your roof cannot. is not suitable for us not in terms of weight collectors only about 1.6 times but the wind load is the issue. So, one row of our parabolic trough collectors is about 260 square metre and you imagine in the morning the collector is placed towards the east and wind load would then imply quite heavy load to your structure. So, it’s designed for ground mounting and we need about 4000 square metre per tonne of steam

Belén Gallego 42:35
1000 square metres peritoneal steam,

Unknown Speaker 42:38
not 4000 square metres or metres per tonne screen. Yes,

Belén Gallego 42:43
okay. Okay, um, is it feasible to produce cold instead of heat?

Unknown Speaker 42:53
Well, I guess I showed some application. It certainly is my a recommendation would be to do it in a special situation. For example, in the case that we developed in the Emirates, then and the end in Kuwait, these areas have problems with the electrical grid. So it’s often the case that the final user cannot access enough electricity to power their their chips. In this case, I believe we have a really a big advantage because we can make it a building independent or the factorio action unit independent from the

Belén Gallego 43:37
What about you Martin, do you want to add?

Unknown Speaker 43:42
Yes, the the. Basically, there are two more technologies to be to be added to the CST technology which we have installed. For example, already in India. One is

Unknown Speaker 44:00
Powering and absorption chiller

Unknown Speaker 44:04
multistage absorption chiller to provide cool energy for cold storage. This is well possible the second technology, which is also quite interesting is industrial waste water treatment. So in this case, the CST technology is powering a membrane distillation unit. those technologies are quite mature, well familiar in the industry or well established in the industry, depending on the solar resource that is available,

Unknown Speaker 44:43
they may create significant benefits to the company using it.

Belén Gallego 44:48
Okay, um, a question is this for TVP? But you know, I wanna I wanna, I don’t know this in reference to presentation, I think why is the efficiency of The system New France, more than 50% is so much higher than Abu Dhabi, which is 30 something percent.

Unknown Speaker 45:07
The reply lies in the efficiency curve that I showed you during the presentation. The higher the temperature, the lower the efficiency in the Emirates, we are running the solar feed at 180 degrees under 780 and that is the maximum range of operation for our collectors. Therefore, we must give something back in terms of efficiency, but in France as we are running between 90 and 140, the average temperature in the solar is the average between 90 and 140. So I guess one thing under 20 and efficiencies higher according to the current system.

Belén Gallego 45:51
Thank you very much. Okay. How does heat storage work? What is the medium? You know, how long karela How does it work? You give us an idea of how This last I don’t know

Unknown Speaker 46:02
when we use a tenma storage only to extend the operations of the solar feed over the day. So we’re not talking here about seasonal storage which are very popular in in this the heating applications, but typically we can go up to 20 hours a day and the storage media is water. So we can either a pressurised storage tank with with the hot water or in the case of low lower temperature like 90 degrees, even a atmospheric pressure storage tank a properly inches for the duration can be several hours, but I would not suggest

Unknown Speaker 46:48
to do more than

Unknown Speaker 46:51
about you marching depending on the application and the system capacity. They are Three different storage technologies we are using. We have building that are in operation one example, our project in Cyprus where we supply high temperature steam to a fruit juice factory 24 seven. So around the clock, we are using a concrete storage. This is the right technology for that specific application in terms of costs and in terms of dispatch ability of the energy. For project in Brazil, we were using a thermal oil storage because there the request was to be on to have a storage that is more reactive. So the charge and discharge of the thermal oil storage is quite rapid. The third project we’ve been using water storage large water storage with pressurised hot water, but depending on the application in in the end and on the economy, there are various storage technologies possible.

Belén Gallego 48:14
Okay, what about textile? There’s a question here about the extent is there any examples of such applications in textile?

Unknown Speaker 48:23
You know what I have? I have read the question I’m happy to answer and

Unknown Speaker 48:29
I share, I share the opinion. And I asked myself the same question, why is the textile industry so reluctant to use any form of renewable energy? Honestly, I haven’t had an answer up till now. yet. It is said it is very sad. It’s a it’s a industry that is using quite a lot of thermal energy, hot water, steam in all sorts of flavours. One of the answers might be that the textile industry typically is gathered in industrial cells. So, the factories are you know, quite close approximation, not much space available, not even on the roof. You know if you go to Pakistan and parts of India you find people living on the roof so how do you want to instal a solar system there? That is not to me The main problem, it is more the customers problem the customer is the European or the western. You know the big brands buying this this textiles, they take care of the first level of the supply chain, but the supply chain has 2030 levels and they don’t look at the steps behind. Yes, there are some exceptions. Don’t get me wrong, but So far and I’m standing up for this opinion the the brands do not take care how their textiles are being produced.

Unknown Speaker 50:13
Well, in our case, we didn’t have the disappointment about the textile because we didn’t have the chance to interface with the with the textile industry, although we believe that they have a big shot to sum up their money. We have more experience with the food industry and they are responding well in general that the the biggest problem is to to get confidence from the blank directors and technical operators. So because they are mostly concerned about integration issues and and the production being in some way but by a different source of energy, which is of course, different And on the weather, the climate, I must say that the way we have approached this, so far has been successful in the sense that the fact that basically we are separated in terms of security from, from the heat Secrets of the factory provides a sufficient safety to the plant operator. But this is a work that needs to be carried out at the general level that we know the industry’s to, to help them understand that the risks are really not significant competitive.

Belén Gallego 51:39
Thank you very much. To be fair, I just wanted to say about this fashion thing. I mean, fast fashion is very quickly getting into like the bullseye in terms of, of campaigning for change. So my guess is that in the next two decades, because it’s not going to happen overnight, you know, things are going to change. They’re gonna change a lot indeed, a lot of the companies, you know, that have made climate announcement or climate protection announcements, they’ve they’re all started with the obvious, you know, changing their shops to renewable energy. But there is also commitment to get all the way through and the supply chain will eventually also be better, I think we can see a lot of we will be able to see a lot of change in fast fashion, particularly, which, as it was, in terms of textiles will be like the most turnover in one of the biggest clients. So at least am positive that this is going to change in the next few years. Okay, how competitive would this solar systems before low temperature compared to conventional systems? Is there an optimum range? Who was thinking this question?

Unknown Speaker 52:45
for low temperature? Martin? I guess I’m going to take the question. So So if we’re talking about temperature between

Unknown Speaker 52:57
50 to 90 degrees, then

Unknown Speaker 53:01
It is already competitive. I mean, they’re all It all depends on the return the temperature of the safe which we want to heat up. In particular, when we are in low irradiance counties, for traditional flat collectors or evacuated pipes collective, it is very difficult in low intelligence areas to raise the temperature above 50 or 60 degrees, unless, of course, during a few days over the summer, this is always possible, but we’re looking at an average production over the I believe that in this case, we can have a very good event for months in fact one of the applications that is not the topic today that we are particularly looking for is the solid is the key thing. That is typical overload very dense areas and is requiring temperature between 80 and 100 degrees and indecent cases we are showing extremely high performance that is not available with any other with any others.

Belén Gallego 54:12
Okay, I think the last one I’m going to ask unless you guys will answer any of them particularly NBA open now when when I’m done, it’s also that nearly five minutes to the hour. So what are the O and M costs to a yearly basis for your systems? I’m going to ask for the two of you. There’s actually a couple of questions about this about O and M costs time intervals. So if you can give a little bit of information then that’d be really welcome.

Unknown Speaker 54:38
Okay, the, in our case, the parabolic trough, the the operations and maintenance of a parabolic drop system is down to cleaning the mirror. This has to be done. But obviously, you don’t need to hire rocket scientists to do that. But it has to be done correctly. You don’t need to have a robot you don’t need to have a machine, you need to have a guy that can operate a pressure washer. And he needs to clean the mirrors. Depending on dust or pollution level in the area 123 times per month, the mirrors and these are the main O and M cost offices.

Unknown Speaker 55:21
Well, in our case in European diet climate that we do not advise to clean them, Erin, in the sense that the rain is enough to clean it wetland. When it rains in a dusty environment. We run a test in Saudi Arabia, not cleaning the panels for one year. And after one year, the last four months was 7%. So the balance was supposed to run at 47% efficiency, and they were running and forth. So this is a significant data measuring device. shows that basically it’s up to you if you want to clean them, you spend some time and some effort, but no water because it is clean with practice and and dry cleaning. So, but it depends if you are looking for that additional access for four months of not the rest of the cost for operation and maintenance, we estimated around $3 per square metre. And they are related to secret stops and eventually periodic maintenance I don’t know repairing some pipes, not for the panels, it’s because the panels in the case of failure they have to be replaced. And so you can just isolate a small portion of the solar feed and keep producing weaker. So you will not have meaningful losses in terms of energy production and no stops and this is the only possibility for for additional cost but as I said, the finance are guaranteed for 20 years. So basically even that would not be. So $3 per square metre. It’s a, it’s a good matrix for this kind of causes.

Unknown Speaker 57:14
Melendez if you may, if you allow this one,

Unknown Speaker 57:18
okay. Spencer

Unknown Speaker 57:20
Markova says the question can you indicate possible application example at temperatures above 400 degrees? Very good question. First of all, we run the thermal oil in the parabolic troughs as high as possible. For example, this is an advantage when we store the energy so we store the energy at the highest possible temperature level to increase the density on the customer site. Typical applications in this range or the ceramic cement industry processes called calcination. This is more, let’s say burning processes. But the whole the whole range of ceramics and cement industry chips them, for example, which is a big, big industry. They are operating at a temperatures even up to 750 degrees. So imagine you need 750 degree drying the solar part of it can already provide you the first 400 420. Yeah. So, simple math, you will reduce your fuel consumption by half.

Belén Gallego 58:38
Well, thank you very much. I think we’re out of time because there’s literally two minutes so I’d like to thank both of you marketing young, I will learn your name very well. Thank you so much for your time you guys. And I think we’ve learned a great deal today. I think most important message here is that this is not a pipe dream is not something that could be a very 50 years it’s available today, and by the sounds of things, oftentimes quite competitive. So let’s hope you know that all of these pressures that we’re seeing now over like the the carbonization starts to open up the eyes of many industrialists, you know, towards, you know, the capacity of renewable energy and solar in this case will actually take up, pick up a lot of the mantle. So, because I think in the end is it will be good for everyone. So, thank you very much, Martin. Thank you very much. VMO. And thank you, everyone. See you next time. Bye.

Unknown Speaker 59:32
Bye. Bye bye.

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