Recording and presentations: Solar Heat for Commercial and Industrial Applications: Industry Update & Impact of COVID-19

14 May 2020

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Automated transcription (it may contain errors)

Belén Gallego

So good morning. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We’re going to begin now this session on solar heat for commercial industrial applications. And this is Blanca Jayco. I am from a TA insights and I’m joining today from from Madrid from my home because here in Spain, we’re still largely homebound. I suppose this is the case with most people that are joining here today. But with me today, I actually have three experts that are going to be talking to you about this specific topic. I’m just your moderator. And I’d like to ask them to introduce themselves so that you can get to know them a little better if you don’t already. So first, I’d like to ask Barbara, Please, could you introduce yourself?

Unknown Speaker 2:35
Yeah, thank you very much. Bill in my name is Babel app. I’m the director of a German agency called Sol Rico. We are actually focusing on solar heating and cooling so no photovoltaics or electricity. In our work. We we are involved in a lot of international projects and we have the editors of the mega of the websites or, which also covers so the heating and cooling And I will report today about an international survey be carried out among the industry, which is supplying solar industry solutions. And I’m looking forward to the webinar. Thank you

Belén Gallego 3:11
very much. Barbara is a great magazine, I recommend you guys go and visit and sign up. And I like to ask you about where are you today?

Unknown Speaker 3:18
I’m also at home and be nerfed in the north of Germany, Home Office, but it’s okay.

Belén Gallego 3:25
Excellent. So Germany. I think there’s a lot of Germans here with us today. Right? I’d like to ask Martin, please, if you can introduce yourself next.

Unknown Speaker 3:33
Yes. Hello, my name is Martin. And one word from also from my side. I’m very happy that this webinar takes place. I’m working at industrial soda for eight years, mainly responsible in the business development with a few called folk key focus on the MENA region and I’m happy to share an update on the current market situation to some extent also impacted by COVID-19 and the market of concentrated or solar heat flux. Motion industrial applications and very much I’m looking forward to discussing also things with you and and learn from you. Thank you.

Belén Gallego 4:07
Thank you very much Martin, who isn’t impacted by COVID-19 today, I suppose. Where are you based today? Again,

Unknown Speaker 4:12
I’m five of Germany. And as you can see, I’m in the office alone. No one else was here. So

Belén Gallego 4:19
okay. So that is social distance. All right. Excellent. That there is people from Kuala Lumpur from India from everywhere we live in Mexico. So definitely, there’s some people here is the middle of the evening right now. Towards the end, please. Could you introduce yourself?

Unknown Speaker 4:34
Yes, happy to do so. Thanks for having me. So I was just

Unknown Speaker 4:39
recognizing that bevel you say Bielefeld is north of Germany. So I’m from Hamburg at the north on top say yesterday have been in Freiburg also passing by coming from sort of construction site. So I’m in charge of sales and business development for soco solar. It’s a Finnish company, producing collectors and doing turnkey solutions and we’re doing a Low Temp solar thermal applications like district heating and processes below 100 degrees. So industrial solar is doing the bigger things, the hotter things and we are the cool ones. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 5:17
Looking forward to receiving more questions and delving into the topic with you.

Belén Gallego 5:23
Excellent. Thank you very much Thorson. Okay. I’m gonna ask Manuel who’s behind the techie to take away that so that our Will you can start preparing your presentation. And you can also mute your microphone. I’ve just done that for you. And and we will begin with the format we will follow today will be we’ll hear from Barbara we’ll hear from Martin and then from tourism and you can send questions. So we will take the questions at the end. But do send them through the q&a box which is at the bottom. What happens is if you send them through the chat, they tend to get lost because there is so much movement in the chat. So please use the q&a box is one more thing we are recording the session in the materials will be available we’ll send them to you by next week so that you can have access to them. Barbara floors yours Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 6:10
Yeah, thank you Oberlin. Okay, I will tell a bit about my latest a survey and we have done these kind of surveys based on a world map we have put up since four years in a project called sola payback, which is looking after solar industrial heat solutions in countries like Brazil, Mexico, South Africa and India. This map should illustrate that there is a very active supply chain for especially for solar industrial heat, so we are very picky with that and only list companies which are really active in this field. We have now 76 online it’s always changing because we update the survey this world map after each survey on only the active responsive companies will be listed again. There are two empty categories which we like to feel like On because we have understood that nowadays. So, the industrial heat is mostly offered by system suppliers from the solar thermal industry background, but more and more conventional energy suppliers are also interested in adding solar heat to their portfolio which is a very interesting trend and we want to invite others to become a part of our roadmap. This is the portfolio of the companies which are today online you see that there are 30 which are not not collector producers. So, they purchase whatever they want and they just offer turnkey and then you see that there is a high background with collector manufacturing, very divided you have flat plates you have linear Fresnel you have concentrated which is only India, new upcoming collector manufacturers like evacuated flat plate collectors, so, a big range. This shows, you know as we have done surveys over the last six years, five, six years we can do these kinds of rankings that means we have listed the companies which have the highest number of ship plans very different in size actually. And you see from this listing that really the hub for the industry is Mexico, India and Germany. So, this is where the industrial solar heat industry is sort of focus today. And the companies are fairly established already and they are a fair mix of collector manufacturers and some also without the ones which are now marked with these yellow arrows. These are the ones us offering concentrating collectors from their own productions. Well, it’s a tough business. This is sort of my routine, we cannot really hide that you see from the last year’s recites in surveys the world well, the broad market of ship, this is what we are searching for, but this surveys sort of declined. It didn’t decline. very roughly but 107 systems to 90 system 99 systems to 86 systems you see that there is a certain downwards trend, this is generally because systems are or systems contracting is delaying a lot. So, we see it a lot of countries hesitating companies, clients were so, that contracts are difficult to reach what the number of mega watt is concerned there is a big fluctuation you see from 153 to 39 to 251 and this is mainly because, the project of Mira, which is Oman project developed by glass point for the oil industry and they commissioned their parabolic troughs in greenhouses in a certain phases you know the first phase was finalized 117 and 2017 with 120 megawatt and they did 2019 another 180 megawatt. And unfortunately, I was informed that this project might stop at this point which is a bit sad because they are now at 360 megawatts, but they wanted additional originally to do one Giga watt one Giga what and it seems that the client for not really clear reasons yet have not announced or have not accorded the third face.

Unknown Speaker 10:31
And you see that the the average size of the projects is increased from 2018 to 2019. This is the last nine in my shorter descriptions. And this is mainly because we have identified a lot more Chinese projects, larger Chinese ship projects, this is was a bit the deepness of the survey that we increased over the years and other come to this later. Well, I don’t saw Bit of a bad or sad news is that 86 of the ship technology suppliers that took part in our survey this roughly 80 claim that they are not satisfied with the business development in 2019, because of the low energy prices and the as I said, the long contracting period, they claim to increase the pressure on the industry sector to implement carbon direction direct reduction targets. So I think this is really new in my surveys that there is a clear sort of claim and also a kind of nervous or, well, really, we have a big potential this is what they always repeat these industry people and but we cannot develop the market fast enough. So we have asked them for the factors to speed up their solar processing business. And these are the four factors that were mentioned the most in the most recent survey February, March this year, carbon taxes or mandatory regulations. This is really The focus of the industry saying to increase the pressure either one of these, or even both measures are absolutely necessary and there’s a strong call for this at the moment. And some countries even India and I also heard about Brazil are really thinking now about this idea of mandatory regulations. This means a certain quote, let’s say renewable crowed for the industry and and or any kind of regulation, like a an individual target for the industry to do a certain share of renewables. Besides that, certainly financing is still an issue. If you ask Europeans, technology suppliers, they usually ask brother for grants. If you go outside Europe, their systems are generally more cost effective already. You have low interest loans. If you come to Mexico, India, where the taxes are at the interest rates are very high. This is also like an incentive. And certainly awareness is an issue the industry is not really aware of ship as an option. Yet, so marketing and promotion focused on industrial customers is also what the industry really looks for. Some exam some results from our latest survey, you see, the top countries where most ship plants were installed last year are again, more or less the same, but they have shifted a bit Mexico return costs went down. This is also an effect on the world market because they were really strong in 2018 with 51 systems and they are now back to 26. This is one this is a bit the effect of the new government. And it seems that the manufacturers also have sort of different sales philosophies, you know, they try to go rather for larger industries in 2019. And they found that this is really hard to contract and so they had a going down in their numbers of systems they realized so this might be more like a going down. effect for a shorter time and we hope that Mexico is picking up again and this will increase overall overall market. Mexico is really a commercial market. So there is no subsidies. And it’s really the the fuel oil and the oil boilers which are in big numbers in the industry which pay off. So and I also listed you a number of other countries where new ship installations were installed. So the technology really spreads Belgium, Cyprus, France, Malaysia, Netherlands, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Turkey and USA, so new installations last year. So you see that it’s really not I mean, it’s mainly focused on the large countries with a number of systems but it’s widespread technology as well.

Unknown Speaker 14:45
Some of the largest new ship installations 2019 the one I already mentioned Mira, these huge class houses which are parabolics, which are in class houses in the middle of the desert. And there was one Installation. From Ge energy in the Netherlands with 6.5 megawatt it’s heating, free car plant like a free car growing glass houses. This is a decision now by the International solar heating and cooling program of the IAEA to also list certain agricultural applications under ship because they are not counted anywhere else. So these kind of agricultural heating or supporting systems are also counted as shipped since last year. There’s one system from him in 3.4 megawatt system with vacuum tubes with foreign electronic producer in Busan. And actually, the new power digna was not able to provide any photo of a 2019 plant because most of these current customers seems to be dedicated with being named or even being photo taken and so on. So this is An older one was showing for an I think it was an I forgot I have to look it up. But what is really amazing about the new parodic Ma, that they have recorded for 2019 these 18 ship plans with an area of 69,140 square meters. This is the highest like capacity that was ever recorded by any of our surveys outside class point, which is you know, really doing big style. So the average field size for them was 3841. And this is really and most of them were vacuum tube collectors, partly preheating boilers partly on a higher temperature level. And we are working now with the newer product my to receive really a bit more of these installations because you can see from the size and the quantity that this is really becoming an interesting world market factor. An interesting and very positive effect. Is the dynamism within the ESCO business that we observed for 2019. The first time ESCO means energy service company and you offer a company a heat contract he delivery contract instead of selling them the hardware. We have two new systems that were finally installed commissioned in ESCO model. There’s one conduct paper mine in France, which is done by new heat as I see as the ESCO company. And we have a second company in chemical factory in Belgium. And this project was developed by a stack a Belgium company and so the term is the collector producer. We have one which was contracted a very big one, I think 10 megawatts which will be installed in France probably until August this year. And the investor he is Kyle therm and the heat supply is also new heat

Unknown Speaker 18:01
Further, Cairo firm which is like an investor for ESCO projects not an only ESCO but renewable heat contracts in general have announced 11 further solar heat supply contracts under negotiations and they are all outside France. So, it seems that they really use the context to the solar thermal industry to jointly develop these projects and we find this a very amazing trend because we know that you know, spending money for industrial companies for not production concerned topics like energy is hard and if you come around with an offer saying you know, you just invest into your normal solar heat or heat, it’s much easier. certainty also. He they are also a French company and concentrating on ship have negotiated the first heat contract and they will sign it soon with the cheese producer in France. So for this Good news, we have listed you here another ranking from reciting from the word map, these are all companies that have sold more than 10,000 square meter installations and not in one but in several, but I mean they have you know a certain capacity by having installed systems with this more than 2000 over the 10,000 over the years. And here I have put green arrows to tell you, who of them is already offering heat supply contracts and you see that you know, ship is highly interlinked with ESCO and you see a lot of arrows here So, Mexico modules Allah, so the term in Germany so lead in Austria pump out of Euro and cheela. And plus point plus point actually has one contract in California 850 megawatt system they want to install in the next years. The oil field is called beta All rich and this is an ESCO project. Also, the one in Oman was not the one in Oman was turnkey, and renewable is light green here because they have actually founded a subsidiary to do solar heat contracts already, I think one and a half years ago, but they told us that they have only done heat pump projects yet and not solar systems yet. So they are about to develop, but not have not done yet. So, all in all, a very positive and promising news. But there’s one disturbing one I also want to share with you. In Asia in India, we had a very positive company contact 2017 when we quoted the CEO from the company aspiration energy that he was very confident in realizing ship projects with ESCO over 20 megawatt in the next one and a half years. And I was really enthusiastic to question them this year and ask them how much of these many systems they plan they have realized. And they have realized Not a single one, all together, and they have done contracted 70 ESCO projects in the last two years, but all of them only with heat pumps, and not with solar technology. So this seems to be a strong trend. That was a bit while new to me as well. I’ve never heard that, that drastically before that heat pumps are sold as a ship solution because it’s driving electricity costs up. But in India, it seems that electricity cost at least last year’s didn’t increase so much. So companies are not afraid of that. Well, this is all I wanted to share with you today. Thank you for giving me the floor. And these are my contacts. I’m happy to answer any further questions.

Belén Gallego 21:53
Thank you very much. Well, thank you. It’s been really interesting. It’s like a trip around the world. Looking at sheep projects. So thank you very much for that one as Marty not to share his screen so we can go with their presentation. This couple of questions that are for you, which we can take afterwards. So you can answer now by text the app. Do you think we can see your presentation? Let me take your microphone off. Here we go. Can you put that in that large screen?

Unknown Speaker 22:25
Is it in large screen? No.

Belén Gallego 22:26
Is that as large as it gets? We can.

Unknown Speaker 22:29
I know what you mean. Sorry. I wasn’t thinking so much about David’s presentation that I got a bit distracted. Okay, now. All right. Yes.

Belén Gallego 22:37
Perfect. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:39
Again, one. Welcome. Good morning. Good evening. Hello to everyone around the world. Thanks, Bill for the interesting update. I think no one else could give such a comprehensive overview worldwide. I have to go through it again. So I cannot even try to give such an updated fast industrial solar model, one company solution provider perspective. Nevertheless, I’m confident that I have something to share very briefly I talked about industrial solar, and then about, as mentioned the title, how we perceive the situation with the crisis, we actually in and then go through various sectors and trends, which I think are helping to understand the current situation of the market and from which conclusions can be drawn on the next developments. So industrial solar turnkey solution provider for solar process heating, we also do other energy technologies. As mentioned already, in both presentation a lot of companies starting to do this and we consider this for for important, important request by the client. And as I mentioned, we work mainly for concentrating solar thermal technologies, but also offer our clients alternative solutions if you consider them for more suitable and we have a very long track record. We’re focused on the MENA region but surely look also beyond two Other regions, Latin America, for example. And mainly focus on direct steam generation where we have the technological, most advanced systems to my understanding and operational development. You can learn more in the in the links below. But I think there’s now enough on industrial sola. And let’s come now to the actual topic of the presentations today. So COVID-19, probably all of you have seen this chart. And for me, that is answered actually a lot. So yes, we are facing a situation but we are facing much stronger, stronger and much larger challenges with with climate change, and I think also that this is basically understood by by everyone. So this, it’s not, it’s not a COVID-19 situation for the long term, but we have to continue to consider the biggest challenge of climate change. Nevertheless, let’s take a bit deeper look what we can see Today, for sure energy prices dropped significantly. That’s not to our favor. We see that potential off takers have constrained investment capabilities, we see that locked down sample international project development, all this does not make it easier for supplier of ship solutions. Nevertheless, we also enter this new experience from industrial solar of the last two months where we are in the corner situation, we could not experience change in requests from clients and multinational. So, multinationals are still calling us discussing with us how we can help to contribute that they achieve their targets with they have announced already. So this process for energy transformation reducing emissions is ongoing, and we do not see at least now an effect clearly we do not know how the situation continues to develop. But at least from their side. I haven’t heard anyone saying The target they’ve given that they will be withdrawn. In addition, what we experience already, we know that huge investment packages are mobilized. And the discussion is ongoing. Whether and to which extent they’re focused on on green investments and the results of this discussions are still still open. The five points I mentioned, on the one hand, they’re like, the bit trivial also, or very apparent, but I do also believe that they are much deeper chains which we do not understand now. So just the fact that conferences are taking place completely virtual,

Unknown Speaker 26:42
which has been planned, like as real life events that people thousands, millions of people work from home office. So there are deeper transformation processes going on, and they will surely also significantly affect our markets and we only start to understand how they are See what we experienced also, with the increased use, for example of online communications, webinars seminars, we also experienced that actually, we can do project development much more effectively. That’s because we were forced to do so during the COVID-19 situation and this trend, I think, will continue. So now looking a bit beyond the pure COVID-19 situation, what things are moving the market at the moment? On the one hand, I think it’s interesting again, to summarize, especially for the people who are not so much focused on not following the EU policy. So much, but the EU end of 2019 issue, the Green Deal, and within the green deals are with the ultimate target of net zero emissions by 2050. Which is quite ambitious and also increasing the ambitions for 2030 is also short on targets are increased. This provides a lot of momentum for the decarbonisation and that’s also For industry and thus also for solo process eating. So, three of the eight targets directly relate to the market for commercial and industrial heat and also the heat for Industry and Commerce. Industry mobilizing industry is explicitly mentioned, this does not only have the relevance for the EU that for sure the effects happening in the EU will also foster technological development, which are of use in in a global global market, but this will definitely mobilize short term or short to medium term developments in in Europe.

Unknown Speaker 28:40
So looking beyond this, and that’s also linked

Unknown Speaker 28:44
to to the funding of for example, horizon 2020 European rise in 2020 research project where a lot is happening already in the field of solar heating and cooling. So I took the time to go through what what is actually happening. listed a few projects which mostly are still running upcoming few of them have been already completed there are much more out there and also for myself and try to understand Okay, what are two to compile? What are the really the driving factors because the research projects today, they help us to understand how the commercial market will look in the future. So please go through them if you want to study them in more detail. But the the summaries so clearly collect a cost reduction is always a topic, but it’s not the it’s not the key topic from my understanding. It’s partly it’s an old project mentioned, partially but it’s not the key part. So, interesting parts are still interesting topics as to the sector specific prototyping for example of bringing ship to the food industry bringing ship to textile or chemical industries. This is ongoing and I think also personally that this is a very important part. The integration with other renewables debris mentioned the growing heat pump markets also increasingly addressed and I also believe that this is important if not necessarily as a as a challenge for supplier of solar heat, but to some extent also as an as an opportunity. In addition, more for a long term production of liquid fuels becomes more important. And so, do high temperature processes bring solar heat also to processes not possible today or not commercially possible today, like for example, concrete, some cement factories and also increasingly the water energy Nexus is addressed. So, these topics should be already like influenced by the solution providers, the soda e today and they will continue to be important for the next years. What are from the private sector the current trends So, We’ve seen for example, with the Audi 100 initiative already major companies moving to ambitious renewable electricity targets. And now in the last year, we’ve seen also that the same happens or increasingly happens for the thermal part, which is very important, because this part needs to be addressed individually. So I’m not sure to those who don’t know, the renewable thermal collaborative. It’s not the only collaborative in this part, but it’s very interesting following them what they’re doing and addressing explicitly the heating market because they see when they look at their processes, actually, we have to talk about heat to achieve significant decarbonisation. And you see multinational from all kinds of sectors are engaging there. And also this, these trends will not be stopped, for example, by Corona I suppose.

Unknown Speaker 31:53
Another trend also mentioned

Unknown Speaker 31:57
before is holistic approach. again. So that’s a graph from the arena, roadmap 2015. The message I wanted to stress here is that for sure, the decarbonisation of industry is very, very complex, very ambitious target. And it will only be possible with holistic approaches. So from this perspective, it’s the seeing different technologies as competing is, is valid for individual projects. Also the projects we are facing, we experienced that companies challenge us with the opportunities from PV or heat pumps. But in the long term, it’s not whether it’s one or the other, but it’s rather how they complement to achieve the ultimate targets and therefore, companies already today can prepare to ease the integration of other technologies, both in the operation but also in the in the development of projects. So developing comprehensive project, which eventually use different technologies will become more and more important and also add more value to the client. Finally, this was already mentioned. And I also strongly believe, as we all do it industrial solar, the trend for contracting will continue. So, the basic part why this, what are the driving forces, when you see on the right hand side, that actually is the end user who covers costs and all the risks, all these costs and risks are moved to the energy energy service company, they don’t do this for free, they still can make a profit. But from the business model, it’s much more promising and as most other players believe, this is actually the will continue to gain importance and become the ultimate most strong market for solar heat. Also policy here The result is not so much focused on solar heat, but still we experienced the need. I think also this became apparent from the Question about it just presented the sector it’s the complete sector for renewable heat, but especially for solar solar heating still requires also push from the from the public sector, if you look at the red and orange parts, so the or integrate parts at the very bottom, so, market can be separated in different phases and for solar heat, we are definitely not fully in the r&d phase anymore, we are in the inception phase out of the inception phase. And what I wanted to stress here is that for designing suitable policy instruments which are needed for achieve to achieve industrial decarbonisation in the heating part specific policies needs to be defined and depending on or taking the consideration that this is the market face where we are in these policies need to consider the market face. So, whereas for example, solar PV is in a different market face also different policies. instruments are suitable, but the know how the general concepts, how to design successful policies for heating is available, but it needs to be strengthened the case that the lessons learned and some countries extrapolated and successful policies to be implemented for specifically for for heating in the industry. And again, we do see the situation if there is a challenge that if target for example, a purely set for reducing the consumption of fuels or reducing the consumption, the emissions, these targets are technologically neutral, which is ultimately good, but it early market phases, it still might be beneficial also in the long term from a macro perspective to specifically foster individual technologies. We have seen this also father technologies, most importantly for PV where it was just decided a certain number of projects will be implemented 20 years back and thereby having these early phases pushed for specific technologies to technology. grew to become self competing and didn’t require this specific technologically push anymore in the long term here, we still need I think improvements for solar heating, Industry and Commerce.

Unknown Speaker 36:15
Finally, summing up, what I just went through impact of COVID-19 for sure it’s very strong, but there will be a loss definitely experiences, but the ultimate impact is still open. The EU Green Deal will accelerate industrial transformation to strength is definitely ongoing and not affected from the above mentioned Corona situation same for the corporate transformation. We do not see that these transformation projects is question by multinationals. holistic approaches take into consideration different technologies become more and more relevant for solution providers. So does r&d market was sold as the continuous investment in r&d activities to position companies To be able to provide these holistic approaches, contracting also continues to gain importance. And on the policy side implementation, the implementation of suitable policies needs to be accelerated. No How is there they’re very good, very successful, and best practices in various countries around the world. But to my understanding, the exchange is still insufficient, and the learning needs to be accelerated how company how countries can gain from the experience other countries made to accelerate solar heating in industry and commerce. That’s it from my side. Thank you very much for your attention.

Belén Gallego 37:40
Thank you very much, Martin. You’re a bundle of joy and optimism. Today’s is amazing. I really enjoyed this. There are certainly a lot of hints here and there, right. But we still there is we’re missing that one law that is just for us, but I think it’s definitely covered in a lot of different things. I want to ask now torsen Can you stop sharing them See if I can take this presentation of course and you have stuff to share as well. Right?

Unknown Speaker 38:05
Yeah, that’s true. Um, so So go ahead

Belén Gallego 38:08
and prepare a talk, you know, you know what you’re doing so and then after that Barbara is doing a really amazing job you know, answering all the questions. Thank you, Barbara. But we’ll get into a little bit of a conversation after you’re done you know, we’ll have plenty of time. But I you know, I’ve really actually enjoyed this and also that, that presentation about all of those policies that together cover so much ground on what we need to get done, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 38:33
Okay, so I do hope you can hear me and see this year sir. First of all, I’d like to thank Bob London and and Martine. So this was amazing. It was really high quality stuff. I have to say Congress together and thank you. So what I what I am showing here is much less information. I was sticking to two pictures to describe what we are doing at Sava solar, and I can only come back to what Martin has already said. So we might compete with technologies on projects, but not on generals. So we need to work together anyway. And there was a question and answer topic here like whether or not we’re going to see combinations of heat pumps and solar thermal, for example. Yes, we will. So, there might be, let’s say tendencies and times periods of times where, let’s say opportunities swing in favor of this or that technology. But I think we should see this from the end. So what amount of terawatt hours we would have to decarbonize and that is not done with one or two or three technologies. So what is service are doing so service allows a Finnish company there are certain absorber for solar thermal collectors have been developed. And with that invention in mind, they started producing collectors and found out well small ones will do so let’s go big and then build really huge ones. The typical collector is close to see 16 square meter a single piece weighs some 430 kilograms and we are aiming for low will be less below load and sorry no more than hundred degree Celsius. So that’s our target. You see here in the overview district heating and process heat are the applications we do this by turnkey deliveries as an EPC or via heat as a service. This is then not us. Babel mentioned a lot to new heat we did this the picture from from the bottom right is from conducted this the paper mill that I mentioned already, you see peculiar substructure of the collectors. And that is because we move we trick with these monster flat plate collectors. So from morning to afternoon they are they are tilted and the angle is constantly changing. So that’s why this helps structure has to be made special. So, the idea is with these processing applications to do this as easy as possible, that’s why I put the 20 foot container there as a picture also giving some kind of let’s say, standard idea, every single project is different different, we know this you know this still there has to be some kind of scaling concept that we have to follow and we want to make it as simple and let’s say acceptable as possible for the off takers for the customers for the investors. So, keep it simple, try to make it standardize into to scale up the whole thing. So, I will just skip from the applications to a very practical one. So coming from what you had been doing,

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